Sam Jackson, controller, BBC Radio 3 and BBC Proms, has spoken to Music Week about schedule changes, the new digital extension and his vision for the network.
The new BBC Radio 3 stream Unwind launched last month as an extension to the main station.
The BBC Proms 2024 reached 10.6 million people on TV, along with 4.6m streams of BBC Proms 2024 content on BBC iPlayer and BBC Sounds, based on data following the end of the season in September.
Radio 3 had a Proms boost in its latest audience figures from RAJAR, with listeners up above two million.
Key schedule changes include a new breakfast show from April 2025 with Tom McKinney taking over from Petroc Trelawny after 14 years. Trelawny and Katie Derham will take over In Tune from Sean Rafferty, who has presented the show for 25 years.
The shake-up began earlier this year with new presenters including Soweto Kinch (nightly jazz show Round Midnight) and Jools Holland (Earlier… on Saturday lunchtime). Friday Night Is Music Night moved from Radio 2, while spoken word output on Radio 3 made the reverse move to the sister station.
Here, Sam Jackson explains the ambitions for the new service, and discusses changes at the main station, the impact of the Albert Hall concert series, supporting UK jazz and earning Music Week Awards recognition…
You were appointed to run Radio 3 in early 2023, moving from a role at Universal Music. How’s it been going at the station?
“It's an immensely enjoyable role, and I feel incredibly fortunate to do it. We've done an awful lot in that period. There's lots of ambition within the BBC around Radio 3 the Proms and classical music more broadly, and what we have to offer. It's been a really exciting and interesting time. I’ve felt stretched mentally, and had some really interesting projects to get stuck into. It's been a lot of fun.”
And you’ve made some schedule changes with more announced for the New Year…
“The aim is taking something that's already really good and hopefully making it even better for audiences. We've made a significant amount of change, all of it very carefully thought through with the audience front of mind. When you come into the BBC, you have preconceptions about certain things. One [preconception] for Radio 3 can be that everybody who listens is a certain type of person, that the Radio 3 listener is somebody who listens all day, every day, is with us the whole time, is deeply steeped in knowledge of the music that we play. Of course, there are some people who fit that mould, and we love them for it, and they're very loyal to us. But actually, if you look at audience data, if you look at RAJAR data, the two BBC Music networks that have the highest proportion of lighter listeners are Radio 1 and Radio 3. So we're very similar to Radio 1 in that sense – we have a chunk of people who listen for quite a long time, but actually the majority of the audience are people who are busy with other things. They're dipping in. So my job is to try and get them to listen for longer and to give them more programming that makes them think, ‘Actually I'm going to stick around.’”
What was the thinking behind bringing Jools Holland in on Saturday lunchtimes? Can he reach new listeners for Radio 3?
“I think he has the potential. There are two things. One is, yes, of course, to draw new people in, but actually it's to delight the audience who are there already – that's got to be the first measure of success. If you hire a presenter, you need to know that the people who already listen are going to have something special from that person, and they're going to enjoy what they have to offer. It can't only be about seeking the new. With Jools, I had a coffee with him because somebody had told me that his edition of Private Passions on Radio 3 when he was a guest was the most listened to ever on BBC sounds.
“I remember, for my 16th birthday, being taken to see Jools Holland performing, and I've obviously followed his career like we all have for many years. So I thought, I'd love a coffee with him, and we got together, and within the first minute, we were nerding out about our favorite classical recordings. He’s so deeply steeped in a love of classical music, and is, of course, a fantastic broadcaster. And I thought, well, actually, why would we not look to do something with Jools Holland on Radio 3? It absolutely needs to work for the network, and we found a way of doing that. I think he's really enjoying it, and the response from the audience has been incredibly encouraging.”
We have an opportunity to do things that commercial radio simply can't do
Sam Jackson
Is it challenging in some ways, taking a station like Radio 3 forward, because some radio listeners don't like change, especially with the BBC stations which are often beloved by a lot of people?
“They are. Look, I think we are all habitual in our radio listening, they are the voices, the presenters and those formats that punctuate our day. The moment any of that changes can be disconcerting. I was acutely aware coming in that making what ended up being the biggest change on Radio 3 in over 30 years to our schedule, if you do that, there will be noises, there will be people who have a view on that – and so they should. So I'm not surprised that, in some quarters, there have been people saying, ‘Hang on a minute, I would have rather you left everything as it was.’
“The reality for me coming in was that twice in the preceding 18 months, we'd had our lowest ever figures for Radio 3 in terms of RAJAR. So you have to make a decision about whether you try and address that, draw those listeners back in and ask why it was that they perhaps weren't listening before. Or you can just say, we'll keep it as the status quo. In the end, I think it's only because people care when they say, ‘Why are you doing this?’ or ‘I would prefer that you left it the way that I like it’. You have to respect that view as I do, and you have to realise that they're saying it because they've got a deep love of the station, and we lose that love at our peril. So I would far rather have a full inbox of people saying, ‘Can you explain why you're doing this or that?’, than make a change and nobody really react to it. I'm confident that we will build an audience through what we've done, because so much thought has gone into that schedule, and it's been very much a team effort.”
You have quite a close connection with the BBC Proms. What’s it like now being in charge of the BBC concert series at the Royal Albert Hall?
“A huge privilege. I started out on the Proms as a runner. That was my first job, I got onto the work experience scheme at the BBC when I was 18 or 19 years old. So now to have gone full circle and be at this point where I'm given the responsibility of running the Proms and of shaping that festival is a huge responsibility. In a position like mine, on the one hand, there's the kind of Ming vase mentality – just don't break it. Just protect it for the period of time that I'm looking after it. I want to do exactly that, look after it, don't break it, be that custodian of something incredibly special. Equally, I know I'm not paid just to maintain the status quo and just to do what's always been done. So you need to bring in some of that fresh thinking. You need to build a team. You need to think about how we're going to refresh what we do, whilst also continuing the very best of what's been there for, in the Proms’ case, more than 100 years. So it's a great privilege to do it. Of those 90 concerts, we had more than 3,000 musicians on stage, on average for our evening Proms, 96% of the hall was full. You look around every night and think, ‘Good grief, I can't believe I get to call this work.’”
How much can you embrace more contemporary, new music without being gimmicky at the Proms?
“We start from the point of saying, ‘Every prom has to be artistically excellent’. That is our aim. Now, the nature of art is not everything will necessarily be excellent in the end. That's in the nature of the performance on the night. You can't guarantee it, but we have to start by saying, is this an artistically excellent creative proposition, and is this going to work for the Proms? Will this fulfill the vision of the founder of the Proms, Sir Henry Wood, who wanted to bring the greatest music to the widest audience. Now, I believe that that can and should be the Aurora Orchestra performing Beethoven's Ninth Symphony from memory, or the BBC Philharmonic performing new music by Anna Clyne. But absolutely, it can also be Sam Smith performing their only UK live date with a full orchestra. It can be Florence + The Machine. It can be disco. It can be, as we've done before, Bollywood at the Proms. It is a broad church. It's about celebrating great orchestral music, great artistry, and classical music proudly at the core of the Proms. But certainly, I think we should be looking at what other music fits that festival like a glove, and how we can use it to draw people into the world of the Proms.”
You’ve previously worked in commercial radio as well. How does Radio 3 compare?
“I'm a big fan of the commercial radio sector, and I feel it gave me incredible experiences. I had people who trusted me and offered me the chance to shape my career, and I'm very fond of the people who I worked with over those 15 years. So you're never going to get me bad mouthing commercial radio. I think it's a really important part of the ecosystem of what is on offer in this country. At the same time, I absolutely love being at the BBC. I love the fact that we can take those risks, that we're not beholden to those commercial imperatives. We have an opportunity to do things that commercial radio simply can't do. There's a breadth of repertoire that we play, there's all the live music that we do. There's work that we do across the UK trying to build audiences in all sorts of new places, not just at Radio 3.”
What’s the vision for Radio 3 Unwind?
“We see that there's a real opportunity for the BBC to deliver an utterly distinctive stream on BBC Sounds – and we hope on digital radio if we get Ofcom approval – that meets the need that so many people tell us classical music can offer to them. They're looking for music to help them unwind. With Radio 3, we have a wonderful mix of programming, but you don't know quite what mood of music you're going to get. So we're looking to draw in listeners who would enjoy a classical music offer from the BBC that is focused on mood, and that has a much broader range of music than is available from commercial radio.”
It was brilliant to see Music Week acknowledging Radio 3, because it is a really vibrant station packed full of live music with brilliant broadcasters
Sam Jackson
Sometimes new BBC initiatives can result in a backlash, will this be a distinctive service rather than competing with other radio stations or streaming services?
“It has to be, if it's from the BBC, it absolutely has to be. That's our job to offer distinctive content that you can't get elsewhere, and we're working really hard to make sure the Radio 3 Unwind gives you exactly that. We really want to focus on recordings from the last 10 years or so to champion the recorded music industry. I think there's more that we could be doing to support labels and artists who are recording really exciting stuff within classical music. Because we're the BBC, we have an opportunity to really broaden the range of music that is heard. It would be all too easy simply to play the ‘hits’ on a station like this, to play the very well known classical repertoire. We're not here to do that.”
Following your appointment in early 2023, how did it feel to be nominated in the Radio Station category at the Music Week Awards this year?
“We were really chuffed by that. That was the first time Radio 3 had ever been nominated as station of the year. I'd love us to win it next year, I'd love us to really go for it! That was brilliant for me to see Music Week acknowledging Radio 3, because it is not the weird outpost that sometimes people think it is. It is a really vibrant station packed full of live music with brilliant broadcasters. I would hope we make people feel incredibly welcome, whether they've been with us forever or they've only just discovered us. So that was great for us and it’s really encouraging for the team.”
You were previously EVP of Global Classics & Jazz at Universal Music. Does that background help you build links with artists and labels?
“I've certainly tried to, yes. In this world we work in, it's all about relationships. It's about picking up the phone and saying, ‘How can we work better’, but also with the artists and getting to know them. We can't necessarily do everything or do it all at the same time, but the more we can work in partnership, the better what we do will be. The Proms and Radio 3 will be more effective if we're working in partnership with artists.”
Your former boss Dickon Stainer is now in charge at Universal Music UK. Is that positive for classical and jazz?
“I think it has to be, yes, but I think it will be really positive for the music industry more broadly. It would be all too easy to look at Dickon and say, ‘Oh, he's the classical music guy’. Well, actually, this is the person who, when he ran Verve, signed Jon Batiste and Samara Joy, who both went on to have really great Grammys success. Of course, he didn't do it on his own, he did it with a team. But I think Dickon’s a really honourable man who's hungry for success and knows Lucian [Grainge] really well and has worked with him for a long time, so I think it will be a very good thing for recorded music. And it has to help the classical and the jazz cause, so I think it's great to have him there.”
Is there a role the station can play in supporting the talent pipeline in the UK?
“I feel so strongly on a personal level about this. I went to a state school, I did music because I had great teachers. There's no way I'd be doing what I do now if it wasn't for music, and it wasn't for having teachers who believed in me and gave me the opportunity. I look now and see a world in which GCSE and A-Level music have fallen by about 40% in the last 15 years. I'm on the board of Trinity Laban, the music and dance conservatoire, and we just see that talent pipeline narrowing. It's tough and not every organisation has the money that they used to. There are many reasons why this has happened, and it shouldn't be about pitting one subject against the other. But I think the reality is the BBC has a real opportunity and a responsibility to do as much as we can, working in partnership around music education.”
Finally, what are your hopes for late-night show Round Midnight as a key platform for jazz?
“We're really keen to make more of Round Midnight – the live sessions on a Friday night, the opportunity for unsigned artists to get in touch and have our support. Soweto [Kinch] knows that scene so well himself anyway. There's been this extraordinary resurgence in jazz in this country. When I wanted to commission that programme, part of the reason was looking at the BBC and thinking, ‘We're not really doing that much for jazz, if we're honest.’ So I thought, actually, we've got an opportunity here. The other thing we see with Round Midnight, it's so popular on demand on BBC sounds, because the live listen is important at 11.30pm, but there are plenty of people who aren't around then but want to listen to it the next morning. We've got high hopes for that one.”
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